The great non event...
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| Join now and keep waiting... |
Or basically, what is truly wrong with our breed
and its future...
and its future...
First, the great sell out of President Hans Wiblishauser, when he replaced the ideals and promises of the great DV and Dobermann breeding for his own material and egoistic ends. He was solely respobsible for the selling out of the German Dobermann from being the premier working breed with cropped ears and docked tails into what is now a pitiful breed with no certain future left in its own homeland.
In fact, last year there were much less than 1000 puppies born in the entire Germany and of which, 30% or more were bred from Orson Von Nemesis. There were hardly any German dogs which won any IPO competitions or trials, nor were any German bred dogs conformation champions outside Germany. Of course, we do not consider Orson as he was placed into position as a pathetic attempt to demonstrate Geerman breeding and the DV's surrendering of the breed standard.
Along the way, using his manipulative means and the greedy nature of trophy collectors, many flocked to the DV banner, abandoning the breed. Breed clubs in Italy, Portugal, Spain, France, Holland, Belgium, Russia... everywhere, club 'leaders' came under and promoted the licking of the German boot. For those that resisted, or protested, the hounds were sent out. Like Becht to Hungary and Serbia.
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| Remember This? |
The IDC leadership itself, is a gang of self serving sycophants who would do anything to preserve their positions in this black private club. Roland Beunekens [ our Albert Speer ] has never disclosed any kind of financial records or made any statement on where all the monies have gone to. Pezzano [ our Goering ] often used his position of power and influence in the breed for his own ends, and for his breeding. Daube [ our Hess ] is a pawn with knowledge as much as a typical village breeder, and in position only because he is a sheep. Redtenbacher is completely ignorant of the breed but is an excellent secretary, much like Martin Bormann. And of course, we all know of the DV's Himmler, Herr Becht. The late F. Striby was himself an ex-SS and commited neo-Nazi, as is the president himself.
What could have been expected of this group?
And now we face the possibility of the beginning of the end, for the Dobermann as we know it.
The DV, IDC and AIAD have already embraced the new standard, and are in fact, forcing it forward and pushing for it. They assume, this will level the competition and force certain 'unwanted' clubs and breeders out of the breed altogether. Orson being Seiger is an example of their attempts to equalise German breeding with the rest of Europe, and the world. The DV hopes to diminish the breed in countries like those from the Eastern Bloc. [ surely there exists some racism here ] They tried it before with the ZTP, and blatant show judgements. Now the best weapon they have is the surrender of the breed standard fully to the FCI. By the way, we all know of the President's very close connections to the FCI and his total inaction and refulsal to do anything.
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| Hans and Hans |
Consider this - Its is well known that Hans Wibli is close friends and associate of Hans Muller, former President of the FCI. The breed change came under while Hans Muller was President.. The new FCI President is Rafael Santiago, from Puerto Rico. And we know for a fact, the Doberman in the Americas is an extremely popular dog for home and show and always cropped and docked. Would Mr Santiago have changed the standard, following the DV.. or can we correctly assume its is part of the personal connections of the two Hans? Think about this... The Hans did nothing to protect this breed.
The request for the change was submitted by Dobermann-Verein (German Dobermann club)
From 1st of January 2015 no cropped or/and docked dog will be permitted to compete at shows organized under FCI regulations..
Only dogs cropped/docked before that date will be allowed to breed and register litters with FCI member kennels..
Seriously, we really think Mr President wants to leave a legacy of a new breed called the Wiblimann...
So, what now?
For the brief moment, there was a glimmer of some hope. It was called the "World Dobermann Breeders". We, at Dobermann Insider, actually decided to sit back and let this movement gain momentum and allow it to be heard, and do something positive. We did not interfere at all, not even with the events which occured in Italy and Serbia. Yes, even we had some hopes for this WDB.
But now we can sit and say, it is basically turned into WTF.
The WDB is truly a mirror of all that is wrong in the breed today. All talk, and zero action. Yes, there was backing of certain judges to this group. But the incentive of IDC titles and promise of judging assigment proved too great. Likewise, certain breeders who were initiators and vocal of this group.. becomes quiet silent as a mouse. Certainly having dogs win nice titles and cups at IDC, and more shows and the promises of popular breedings and payments is also a great way to kill any dissent and thoughts for the breed future.
These events are no coincidence, just consider the timings and the eventual silences that follow now.
And notice now too... the big rush to breed as much as possible this year... from the same bunch of dogs, not that anyone cares for future genetic health.
Let us see something interesting from its original Manifesto -
" Our intention is for the well-being and the growth of the Dobermann Breed "
so we ask -Is this possible with the focus of one type of breeding?
Is this possible when judges themselves are not concerned? Or refuse to take a real moral stand?
Is this possible with mere words and big silences after?
And also, from their website :
" We are very close to a historic achievement for the breed Dobermann.
For the first time 500 breeders around the world, join together to the future of the Dobermann... this is a really important fact...."
Mmmm......Important for who? Or better yet, to what? To business?
Because, in the end...
You Lost.
Your breed as you knew it Lost.
Your dear friends who thought of making a change, Lost
Your club Lost.
You were all sold out.
Well played Mr President and gang... well played.... With your shining cups and empty promises and your yard dog Becht... You have continued the downfall of the breed. Perhaps finally at your future [ soon ] retirement or death, the breed itself will cease to exist except maybe in a new FCI Group 11 - Rare Breeds of Europe.
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| Congratulations Herr Pezzano |
But let us also state.. we at Dobermann Insider, will NEVER SELL OUT like another WTF organization. As long as there is a need to expose, a need for transparency, justice, freedom and the Truth.
As long as there is a need to speak up, and offer true democracy...
As long as those who love this breed need us...
By the way, this year we have also gotten more volunteers to our cause, those who are now truly fed up with the state of the breed and its corruption in the hands of the few. We are going in deeper, with our comrades in Germany, and we shall continue our work for the Dobermann.
Let us also propose this - since you cannot even rely on the WDB and your breed club... COME TO US. We strive for the truth, and for the breed's future. We protect those who are truly lovers of the breed and come forward. We will always remain watchful and critical of those who manipulate and corrupt the breed for their own ends.
2014.... is the time now to truly MAKE A CHOICE.
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| PERHAPS INSTEAD.....! |
Congratulations Dobermann Insider ! You hit the right spot !
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, are dogs that were cropped and/or docked BEFORE 1st of January 2015 allowed to compete in FCI shows or are the disqualified?
ReplyDeleteBecause I'm buying a puppy this year and I really need to know is puppies that are docked this year eligible for showing next year or is it extreme folly to buy a docked pup this year?
Apologies, if this question seems silly to some of you but I hear so many different versions from different people.
And "yes" congratulations again to Dobermann Insider for an other great article. Keep up the good work...
I think you make a bit of confusion, WDB was born only after the IDC, 2013, and I don't think that breeders and judges that you mentio won something without merit , if you think this ust like everyone else, just think of your interests .
ReplyDeleteAnd who told you that the WDB is finished? Are you sure?
I don't think it's confusing. Whilst reading it, I felt that it was obvious that the offers of cups and prizes were for future shows, future titles, in order to keep quite now.
ReplyDeleteIt does look like WDB has just slowly died a death. Just look at their website. Nothing new since the 3rd bulletin at the beginning of October. It's a real shame.
Yes, Insider is correct.. when WDB died down.. you see some male being used all over now... And certain judge keeping very low profile too.. Even at Caliandro.. silence for cups and awards...
ReplyDeleteis in fact the silence of Caliandro felt with 300 dogs entered, the large part cropped and docked.
ReplyDeleteWDB maybe think, why make war now who is going to die alone?
WDB still exist ?
ReplyDeleteIncredible !
Buying a pup docked and cropped is a shame, they can' t be showed anymore!
ReplyDeleteAll dogs cropped & docked before 2015 can be shown, its logical as if they cannot there will be no dogs allowed to show in most countries only germany & belgium !! maybe that is the plan !!
ReplyDeleteInsider , maybe is time to construct a real new international club ! Not si big as World one , but maybe remained few breeders which really want to change soimething !
ReplyDeleteThink to that and if you can, make a public announcement . I wil come.
W.A.
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Somebody from USA 7 wroted in DR chatboard
Golden age of the Dobermann
has passed. Don't look to DV or IDC or WDB for help. It's not coming.
A very simple solution ... ALL CUT ears and tails, Fuck FCI, DV, exhibitions and other ... and have a Doberman!
ReplyDeleteNot so simply...we need pedigrees .
ReplyDeleteTo obtain pedigrees we are enforced fo accept DV or FCI rules .
If no accept = no pedigree . MAT .
I read the post about the Golden Age of the Dobermann on DR.
ReplyDeleteSad to say I feel it's true, it's gone. Thank you DV/IDC for ignoring the
the major health problems.
Regarding the ZTP....
ReplyDeleteI read in IDC congress about this future intention http://www.dobermannvereniging.nl/download-onderwerp/notulen-idc-congres-2013
Know somebody if the leaders already decided to make this GRAVE ABUSE and stop the Starter ZTP = the interdiction of 80% population to participate on selection !?
Yesterday call me a owner of one my breeded dog and informed me that he can't participate to ZTP because even the dog have German HD as his father , his mother have HD A but not readed by Wiblishauser and DV gang .
In same situations are many others .
If this already happened (as they announced on IDC congress) that mean the EXCLUSION OF 80% of dobermanns population from selection .
We want to change the selection rules :
- FREEDOM
-SIMPLITY
-POINTS SCORE , for mating both parents must to have minimal 10 points
-NO TRAINING - NATIVITY
-FREE JUDGES
-NO POLITIC
Anyway , personal I don't offer 2 moneys on this TRAINED JOKE named selection which by 20 years don't bring any benefit to dobermann breed (the prove is the grave bad point where genepool arrived today ) but if happened that , THIS IS A NEW ABUSE AND ILL POLITICAL DOMINATION !
First of all I want to congratulate the dobermann insider by exposing all these subjects a real shame for the dobermann but I put in question the truthfulness of this blog when he points green Portugal as influence of Pezzano!!!! TOTALLY WRONG sees who don’t knows nothing Portugal the president and all staff is 100% DV not Pezzano is see the connections many years of the president he has harmed the breed in Portugal in order he look good with DV I hope dobermann insider keep up but much more exact
ReplyDeleteSince it is not easy, we can not have its own database and skip the FCI and other ..
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know what happened in Hungary and Serbia? I keep hearing this but never anymore than "something happened".
ReplyDeleteWe can't let EU kill our breed, can we?
ReplyDeleteI think the question should be
ReplyDelete"Why did we let EU kill our breed"
You still do not understand!
ReplyDeleteTalking about shows and the appearance of the animals?
What's wrong with you?
The breed is sick, fat and has no power and your thoughts are at the next glittering trophy.
The breeding papers of DV are just paper waste.
But there are your thoughts.
You want a healthy Doberman, but everyone is anonymous.
Your cowardice is pathetic.
Your inaction is pathetic.
Only a few are needed to make it right.
Healthy, powerful dogs do not need papers and trophys.
Responsible breeders are required!
I repeat my offer:
Assemble yourselves upon dobermannforum.com
I spend every month 500, - € for this worthy cause.
Dieter Hohl
Dobermann Insider and other breeders ,
ReplyDeleteWe need a new breeding way , we need to promote new breeding rules :
The 7-th principles of FREEDOM :
1. FREEDOM and RESPECT form every country and EVERY breeder and EVERY dobermann !
2. A FREE and New NATIVE ZTP :The ZTP is free and directe for all dobermanns , need only their pedigree ! The judgement must be based in POINTS SCORE . The grave standard problems will stop the reproduction right . For all the rest , the score can be from 1 to 10 points .For reproduction , both parents must to have together + 10 points .
In this mode the performance is encouraged , will happen a real selection and real improvement of every litter , the entire genepool is protected because nobody is eliminated !
3. SIMPLE structures, simple rules , noting mandatory because WE ARE NOT SLAVES and WE ARE NOT ENGAGED IN HITLERIST ARMY .
4. Doberman SHOWS will be only places where breeders meet one with others . The SHOW titles must to lost their VANITOUSE importance because VANITY almost destroyed our breed !
5. Every country FREEDOM in breeding is recognised by new international structure how long the national clubs RESPECT that PRINCIPLES OF FREEDOM !
6. All dobermanns, ugly or beautiful, working or showlines , croped or natural, doked or undoked are EGUAL and can be reproducted FREE how long they are correct and in standard (mental and phisical) !
7. We can be MEMBERS AND PARTNERS with FCI and ANY other organisation how long they respect our race , this race breeding freedom , conform our necesities and how long their rules are conform with our FREEDOM PRINCIPLES !
Only in this mode this race will be free !
W.A.
W.A.
ReplyDeleteIf this is to be the start of a new organization please tell us how FCI is going to accept this new group? Especially after 1Jan15
Very good start and I support you.
The group already exist . You do not hear his voice anywhere ?
ReplyDeleteFCI already heard our voices , be sure ! I had care by that personally by long time ! :-)
They know what is in dobermann lovers heart !
As I said, the wind of change comed . Nobody can stop that !
Because this wind comed from YOU all, from this race breeders souls and step by step cover averithing !
And NO with me. I am and never will be a leader . I no need that .
ReplyDeleteAll what i want is a NEW CONSCIENCE of breeders ! and that alredy happened !
Take the breed in your hands dear dobermann lovers !
Take the breed back !
You think you get help?
ReplyDeleteYou think you can trust?
No crow chops the other an eye out!
Do not be so naive!
The man for FCI Breeding and Health is ...................... Wiblishauser.
The goat as a gardener!
Hailed by the hangers-on and slaves of sparkling trophies who are watching the demise the breed.
If you want that the Doberman lives you have to start all over again!
Without DV, without FCI, without financial interests as Wiblishauser and gang.
No dog in the breeding under 6 years old and not a dog without DCM test.
I repeat myself. I have everything written in the forum.
You are too dure Dieter ! We can't exclude from reproduction and from genepool 70% from dobermanns and to keep only +6years males DCM tested ,
ReplyDeleteBecause 6 years is not a guarantee and DCM test is not a guarantee too, because DCM is POLIGENETIC.
Not the extermination is the salvation of this breed !
The genetic diversity is! Is a genetical fact . And for that , the FREEDOM in breeding is unique way .
With animals older than 6 years, you can minimize the risk. Nothing more.
ReplyDeleteGenetic diversity is the big problem. Outcross-breeding is important. Stops inbreeding. This is the reason for the diseases.
The gene pool is, thanks Wiblishauser, very small.
I fear other races is necessary to introduce.
No other race is needed. All is needed is a group of breeders that are honest and health test their dogs. There are hundreds of clean Dobermanns with good looks and mentality. A new group of breeders that can certify their dogs.
ReplyDeleteStart over again and this time limit use of males. It can be done and the health will improve in a few generations.
Sure that the genepool is small. Very Small . For example, Germa show dog Orson V Nemesis, from 32764 possible ancestors in 14 generations , only 1115 are different . The same on entire race . The coeffciient of inbreeding is HUGE .
ReplyDeleteSome old breeders as Arany Sarkany , presented public some writed by hands pedigrees with dogs from Eastern space from 1910 years .
This is a new confirmation about originality of past Eastern dogs from Poland, Czech, RUssia , Hungary, Romania .That dogs was different phisically , mental and very longevive in general.
After their TOTAL elimination from breeding stoc in favor of 75 cm Great Danes NON ORIGINAL dobermanns , because GENIALS are GENIALS and nothing more, they destroyed not only a original huge dobermann genepool but destroyed any actual refresh for dobermann breed>
Now we talk and talk, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid again and again same bloodlineswhich have again and again same genetical background based hundredths of times in dogs of ex DV president : Bryan V Forell, Chicko V Forell, Odin V Forell or Frankenhorst : Hertog Alpha V Le Dobry , Ebo V Groote Mat , Hundredths of years Olive Bamby Pride , Don Dayan Alva , Vitesse, Ero and other Frankenhorsts ,
That are the reasons and FACTS wroted in pedigrees , from which we arrived in this point of genetical bottleneck and general ill problems ..
You must to understood one thing . This show system is WRONG . Very Wrong ! If this system destroyed dobermann breed genepool one time and eliminated TOTAL entire dobermanns populations from variouse countries, this system is sick and dangerouse and we must to castrate and cut his testicles , from ROOTS . Otherwhise the story can repeat , more grave than precedent . . What happened in variuse parts of countries , is happened on silance in your own dobermanns which endure the genetical limitation and died youngs ! I talk about YOU , about any of us !
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe problems of all kinds are known.
ReplyDeleteWe have a small gene pool.
Many diseases.
A race, likes not cold or warm weather. Here are Malinois and German Shepherd advantage.
From motivation and performance, not to mention.
Where is your will to start anew!
Stand up and show your name!
Breeding healthy dogs and you will be able to sell them.
Many people want a Doberman! Healthy, long-lasting as in times past.
To do this you do not need a DV or FCI.
We need smart people.
Doctors and geneticists
Breeders who want to have the "old Doberman" again.
Leave the anonymity. When a few of you beginng, will many follow.
I firmly believe and the time is
Finally, the DV will save the race ! Voluntary inspection published! Info on Dobermannforum.com
ReplyDeleteYou have right ,
ReplyDeletePeople strt to discover the real original roots and to be PROUD by the past of this race !
People start to share old pictures all around , to understand that there happened a FALISTY and the original dobermann was substituted with a molosoidal one !
The battle for Original is started ! We need to penalize ANY non-doberman character ! Inside of our dobermanns, the ORIGINAL dobermann is involved till the limit of his resistance in battle with molosus fully by ills , with porcine eyes , with big round heads as Hitlerist caskets , with shir character, promoted score of years at high levels !
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dobermann-verein-ev.deFebruary 19, 2014 at 8:44 PM
Breeding healthy dogs and you will be able to sell them.
Many people want a Doberman! Healthy, long-lasting as in times past.
To do this you do not need a DV or FCI.
We need smart people. Doctors and geneticists
Breeders who want to have the "old Doberman" again.
Yes, we need the old Dobermanns but where are they?
ReplyDeleteThe only way is to find people with frozen collections that have been
stored for years. Collections from healthy lines and breeders that want to take the chance to use them.
That is true again . The old don't exist anymore Maybe in pictures . I have doubts that there exist many breeders which have frozen sperm .
ReplyDeleteI know showbreeders , I think there existe frozen sperm from Guido , Renewal and many others. Probable they keep this sperm for final battle :-)
In Occident , except working lines , many of them from a paralel same genetic in working version , nothing remained .. In Eastern space same story , in Poland, the last female is Anaconda Akagera . She have few pupies , some of them with Movarak .but no one male for reproduction . One of best Anaconda male is on Germany as pet and he have 75 cm because giant Baron Renewal , .
In countries with working tradition (Germany ,Danemark, Norvege) still exist some working lines which descdend from original genepool That are the countries of KLEO V.D. WEYERMÜHLE and BINGO V ELENDONK and present Mona V Edertal , Bayern dogs , Ataraxie bit Ben , Jotunheim dogs .
They still are alive and we must to open closed gates for them ! They are ORIGINAL dobermanns ! Maybe not so show beautiful but ORIGINAL !
In Hungary nothing pure and nothing remained except Naplemente in Tahi Reme . But now they are mixed by few generations, sometimes in dangerouse mode .
In Czech , I do not know .
IN Russia , they have show succes , for long time they breed most huge dobermanns !.Their old lines exist only in mixture , covered by occidental showdogs in variouse kennels as Gratiano , POR ,GV and some other kennels . But ther old lines presance is minimal , somewhere maternal on 4-5 generation back .
In Romania nothing pure remained., and there the general genetical limitation is the same as everywhere . Except 2-3 hags which borned few pupies in mixture and their future is incert , all te rest was eliminated by system .because even they breed under FCI, there was not any differance how long their Judges Presidentget get lessons from IDC judges and try to aply here .
After they losted all their past dogs, and now losted premature their dogs because ilnesses, Romanians are hurted in hearts !
But Romanians are very obstinate breeders , very proud and love their dogs. Long time their fury went in wrong direction ! But step my step I sense them in silance , under same baricade . They understood now WHO is the real enemy . Is only time question till Romanians will be total involved in battle in the right side .
This is a fast radiografy of situation .
Then, very probable we will see the ORIGINAL dobermanns only in pictures,
Or maybe not. We will see !
Now the battle happen in the last possible place : INSIDE OF OUR DOBERMANNS !
And WE have not any intention to lost the battle .Because this is the last possible battle.
Because English , I will repost
ReplyDeleteThat is true again . The old don't exist anymore Maybe in pictures . I have doubts that there exist many breeders which have frozen sperm .
I think there existe frozen sperm from showlines , from Guido , Renewal and many others . They can easy find Great Dane sperm . Probable they keep this sperm for final battle
In Occident , except working lines , many of them from paralel showlines genetic in working version , nothing remained .
In Eastern space same story , in Poland, the last female is Anaconda Akagera She have few pupies , some of them with Movarak .but no one male for reproduction . One of best Anaconda male is a Germany pet and except that he have 75 cm because his grand-father the giant Baron Renewal ,he is a beautiful male .
In countries with working tradition (Germany ,Danemark, Norvege) still exist some working lines which descdend from original genepool That are the countries of KLEO V.D. WEYERMÜHLE and BINGO V ELENDONK and present Mona V Edertal , Bayern dogs , Ataraxie bit Ben , Jotunheim dogs .
They still are alive and we must to open closed gates for them ! They are ORIGINAL dobermanns ! Maybe not so show beautiful but ORIGINAL !
In Hungary nothing pure and nothing remained except Naplemente in trend showline Tahi Reme which mated this hostorical bloodline with all IDC Sieger, no matter who they was .Now , Naplemente , descendants of Honor Guards and destroyed American legend Borong the Warlock are mixed by few generations, sometimes with dangerouse males .
In Czech , I do not know . They had some descendants of old Czech but they was infected by show dead corps and majority died .
IN Russia , they have show succes but the cost was huge . They do not talk about that some simply breeders/owners said about a true genocide . For long time they breed most huge dobermanns , in last generations they relative changed their position ! Their old lines exist only in mixture , covered by occidental showdogs in variouse kennels as Gratiano , POR ,GV and some other kennels . But ther old lines presance is minimal , only maternal , 4-5-6 generation pedigrees back . Is impossible to find something original in RUssia without BIG Jivago, Baron Nike , Gamon, Ugor, Slavnoi ,LIvonija , Quirinus and tones of Frankenhorsts and Forells .
In Romania nothing pure remained., and there the general genetical limitation is the same as everywhere . Except 2-3 hags which borned few pupies in mixture and their future is incert , all te rest was eliminated by system because even they breed under FCI, there was not any differance how long their Judges Presidentget get lessons from IDC judges and try to apply there .
After they losted all their past dogs, and now losted premature their dogs because ilnesses, Romanians are hurted in hearts !
But Romanians are very obstinate breeders , very proud and love their dogs. Long time their fury went in wrong direction ! But step by step I sense them in silance , under same baricade . They understood now WHO is the real enemy . Is only time question till Romanians will be total involved in battle in the right side .I still believe on that !
Then, very probable we will see the ORIGINAL dobermanns only in pictures,
Or maybe not. We will see !
Now the battle happen in the last possible place : INSIDE OF OUR DOBERMANNS ! Then all depend by breeders , what they want and what side they will choice !
And WE have not any intention to lost the battle .Because this is the last possible battle.
The problem of the future is health.
ReplyDeleteNot only DCM, much more problems was ignored.
Many breeders have bred, even though they knew that they multiply diseases.
Therefore, it is very difficult to save the race, without other healthy race
introduce in the bloodlines.
We need really need smart people for this Problems.
And Breeders which want it make right.
It is most important, you give up to your anonymity.
You must put a sign.
You don't want that? Ok, we can buy Mallinois. This breed is on the way, to be the better dobermann.
the health problems are also in the german working lines. same problems like the showlines. many die of dcm at young age but these dogs are not in the middlepoint of interest so noone knows when and of what they died. W.A. just because you have not known of dogs from the working lines who dropped dead at young age, it doenst mean they dont exist. they are in no point better than the showlines. the sickness of the breed can only be cured by changing the breeding rules. it should be possible for any normal person to bring his dog into breeding if he has a normal character. this without any training. not only professional trainers and people with cash in their pocket should be allowed to be breeders. we need to make breeding easier not harder. we need more genetical diversity. we need to restirict how many matings a male can do per year. it should not be possible that one certain male mates in a year 1/3 of the female population.
ReplyDeleteI do not know directly the working lines from West Europe but I have many informations about them . Yes, is true , many working lines are affectd by same show lines diseases . But few of them still are longevive and can bring superior character and healtly genes .
ReplyDeleteHow long a longevive dobermann will exist , have no sense to lost more the dobermann race purity and introduce another race .
If you supose that we can stabilize dobermann race ussing a foreign race , THEN If we are SMART , with few longevive bloodlines we can stabilize the dobermann race !!!!!!!! For example Ataraxie Big Ben, descend from 13 years Bayern dogs and longevive Eastern ! He is the best in Working !
HOW MANY MATINGS HAVE THIS DOG WITH SHOWLINES ? NO ONE !
There still we have Kleo Wayermuhle blood , still exist a alive Anaconda Akagera , still inside of our dobermanns exist longevive genetic !
Still WE CAN !
Regarding selection, I like what you said ! Excelent points , Bravo !
"it should be possible for any normal person to bring his dog into breeding if he has a normal character. this without any training. not only professional trainers and people with cash in their pocket should be allowed to be breeders. we need to make breeding easier not harder. we need more genetical diversity. we need to restirict how many matings a male can do per year."
Forgot to sign
ReplyDeleteI am Weinberge Avatar.
I am Weinberge Avatar and I have no intention to renounce !
ReplyDeleteIn the day when OUR (few different breeders) bloodlines will be deafeated , in the next second the race will be killed !
Then..take care what you wish to defeat !
The detail talking must end
ReplyDeleteFirst you have to find a new crew for a new way and new rules.
Then Gentiker commission must find the best way in detail.
Here to talk, this dog is good or this dog is bad, that brings nothing.
Many breeders have bred very questionable. all of you have seen that.
Now is the time to act and not talk.
I repeat, first you have to leave the anonymity
By few years there was a informational battle.
ReplyDeleteI do not know if breeders are ready for new breeding system but for sure something was changed .
First step we need freedom in breeding , simply and eficiente rules , simply selction for every breeders , all normal and correct dogs must to simply pass the selection (the proposal about a system points is excelent) to protect genetical diversity .
WTF is happening?! Poisoned dogs here and poisoned dogs there:
ReplyDelete"Welcome on the website of Dobermann Kennel van Neêrlands Stam!
Unfortunately we must inform all that were interested in a puppy out of the combination
Doncorleone v.h. Wantij and Gravin Zoë v. Neêrlands Stam that the planned litter is off.
Gravin Zoë turned sick and examination proved she was poisened. The vet and his team tried everything to save her but unfortunately she had to be put to sleep after complications.
Our condolances go to her owners."
From: http://www.neerlandsstam.com/
I don't believe anything I hear about Neerlandsstam Dobermanns.
ReplyDeleteIf it was a health issue, it's a good thing it happened prior to whelping a litter of pups.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I have to question the cause of death as poison.
ReplyDeleteSnake bite, hit by auto or poisoned. More than likely it was a cardio problem.
The answer is tipycal ! See the next video the answer of officials DV and breeders starting with 14minute 50s
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4wuv26068
and, as always, is only spoken and not traded.
ReplyDeletein all the forums just talking bla bla bla.
the new speaker-club "the anonymous doberman lover"
1 st is written VAN NEÊRLANDS STAM
ReplyDelete2nd if you have any inquiry about Gravin Zoe dead or you want know more about her, or see directly the papers made by the vet clinic, feel free to send me an email at vanneerlandsstam@gmail.com
3rd my house is opened for all the people that want come to visit me, and my address is on my site. Have a nice week end!
Sorry, Frederica. I got so used to Zwan lying about everything I thought it may carried over when you bought the kennel name.
ReplyDeleteMy proof are the Vet certificate, that they give me and her blood analysis, and so on.
ReplyDeleteAll are available if you ask it by my email address.
Please she is dead, for poisoning, if you don't believe it, ask me directly, I've got also my account on FB and I'm always available for all.
But taking bad about Zoe is a stab for the owner all the times.
Have a nice day.
Federica, when you get this kennel name , you get good things but many many bad thigs , too ...
ReplyDeleteFrederica, my condolences on your and the dog owner's loss. You have my deepest sympathy and I really hope to god that your bitch did not suffer. May she rest in peace.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to put the autopsy repost on your website to stop the mindless gossip and slander as clear there is a lot going round.
It would seem that people can on hear can accuse quicker than they can apologise. Shameful behaviour.
Again, you have my sincere condolences.
I thank you for your condolences, you are kind!
ReplyDeleteI decide to gave directly at people which ask because behind a pc all are lions. And the strange things are that I need to explain a lot of things and other dogs owner tell my dog is dead of,.....and for them is ok, and I'm a liar!!
With their email only 1 ask, that , a gentle Enghish person have asked it and I've send him all.
After one day he reply me with his deepest condolences.
I think that I'm honest person and if other people aren't, is not my problem.
Before me Han, maybe make some not good things, as one of you told, but he is himself I'm different.
If you have something to ask, to tell me, good or not, (as a person that write me one pm on fb) I'm always available for all.
Without any problem.
My email address my phone number my house, I'm here ask what you want.
Via General Ferrari 35,
15057 Tortona / Italy
+39 3497307524
vanneerlandsstam@gmail.com
Dear Federica
ReplyDeleteYou are being very humble and willing to share information.
However, why did you feel it necessary to buy a kennel name. I cxcan only thing that you were not willing to do the work to get a good reputation. You thought that you could just buy the name. In the early years the kennel thrived
and was managed well. When Zwan took the name things started going down hill. There were a few good dogs but for the most past Zwan was playing the game with Hans w. Now you payed money for the kennel name which dose not mean you will breed like the old lady at the start of the kennel.
Same Kennel name but without the respect. You should of just bought the dogs available and went under your own kennel name. You can call it want you want but the name just doesn't mean much anymore. Do you plan to also sell the name when you are finished breeding?
Dear Federica , as I said when you get this kennel name , you get good and bad things together . You get the initial and historical Neerland Stam bloodline breeded by the old Lady . Only few world breeders still breed the original Neerland Stam . The initial bloodline was substituted by a total different bloodline responsable by actual genepool reduction and actual grave and big ilnesses and problems of race.
ReplyDeleteI can say that you are a kind person and you fight for your kennel name . But this is not sfficient . If you really want to restore the kennel name, you must to restore the real bloodline. You are not alone , few breeders still breed the original , but I think that the time of your choice will come soon .
Now we have another bussines to do , not to atack Federica .
Dear Anonimous (is really difficult put a name?)
ReplyDeleteI haven't buy the kennel name as all things, this is really funny that people don't know the FCI regulation, before I become co-owner and after some months, I become the owner (after a RvB exam)
Maybe, for you Han make a bad selection, are opinions, but you Anonimous, in 30 years of your breeding how many champions you have made? How many of them becomes old, as a lot of van Neêrlands Stam doing? How many kennel name have stanted in all the world thanks to a van Neêrlands Stam dogs? And about your dogs, how many of them become founders of some kennel all over the world?
Is not just for arguing, are facts.
Maybe you see only what you want, maybe you think that the 2nd era of the kennel was not good as under Mrs Vera, is ok are your opinions.
For me she have started very well, Han take the kennel at a marvellous level and me, we see in years how I can do, and IF I can be destroyed or not.
Give me time, start to know me, not the people before me, and after (maybe 10 years) we can talk about my idea of breeding and the other things!
Hope you have understand!
What continuity ? Study the pedigree back and maybe you will understand the differances.
ReplyDeleteFederica I've talk to you at the Caliandro, for me you are ok. I believe in you!
ReplyDeleteSincerilly I agree with Federica,
ReplyDeletewhy here all fighting? The dobermann world is so sick with stupid people? Why is not possible to make a better selection without any venomous post? The breed is sick because a lot of breeder and owner are adders!
ReplyDeletewe need to stop the ZTP selection, in a lot of country with the 80 per cent of judges you have a bad dog? no problem if you make a little present at the judge and the dog can pass! ZTP is shit, made from a little group of stupid people, old and ignorant, with they own mafia! Change it, and increase the numbers of judges 100-200 and they can help the dobermanns world not destroy it!
ReplyDeleteBasical , the selection is important for any race and it is a breeding important tool . the selection mean to select the best products or a product which have a very rare or preciouse character and to increase a entire population value .
ReplyDeleteNow let see what mean selection in dobermann breed :
-mean a trained test when very well trained dobermanns pass a non native selection
-mean much moneys $$$$$ involved
-mean restrictions for large population
-mean only few judges which have the judgement monopol
-mean the reduction of entire genepool till actual grave genepool bottle neck
-mean a sick and ill domination of show bloodliens and elimination from breeding and from many countries of large populations
-mean the actual domination of DCM, Cancer, Wobbler, Skeleton problems , torsions, imunitar system ,
How we can solve that ?
- we must to reevaluate the trial and find new tests which put accent on NATIVITY and eliminate TRAINERS from dobermann selection . Only the NATIVE character is wroted in genetical ADN , the trainers only get the $$$ and because their training change the selection RESULTS , they introduced the FALISTY in dobermann breed .
-We need new and capable judges which really know this breed .
- The Selection must be DIECTE an FREE for every dobermann with pedigree . Any normal dobermann must to pass the selection .
-The selection must be based on points system , nobody is eliminated . For mating is necessary MINIMAL 10 points from both parents . In this mode any generation average value is superior than anterior and the entire genepool is porotected .
-any dobermann with pedigree must to have pedigree . the pedigree is a borned right as borned origin document on humans . The show, working and health performance and selection score must be writed on any pedigree . All dobermanns are egual , all dobermanns have life right . The differance is wroted by their performance and scores .
You're absolutely right!!!
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing wrong with the ZTP. Vogel did a good job putting it toghter
ReplyDeleteThe problem is with the Arseholes that administer the test. Hans is worthless
unless you are his friend or have something he wants. Political animals always on the look out for a free trip or meal.
always on the look o
Mr Wibli is in a really bad condition as mr Pez........
ReplyDeleteNot as bad as the condition of Dobermann today.
ReplyDeletemaybe they have DCM... like the dobermann...
ReplyDeleteI think that Mr Wibli have alzheimer, and other patologies, Mr Pez have some other patologies as cardio problems, as high bloodpressure and so on....we will see. One is born in 1937 the other in 1948.......
ReplyDeleteThe fundamental problem is the breeder!
ReplyDeleteAgain, they follow their better judgment to the faulty way of Wiblishauser.
Why? For a bit of praise or a trophy?
Or fear that a puppy bring less money?
A good breeder will not make this mistakes and he does it better, than the stupid slaves of Wiblishausers.
What did he lose? The praise of Wiblishauser? As you can shit on it.
Fast the Doberman-Friends talk: Wow, a Breeder makes it better!
We have a disease strikes more than 60% of the dogs up to 6 years of age.
So it is only logical that I breed with dogs that are still healthy with 6 Years, in order to minimize the risk.
I WANT TO BUY FROM THIS BREEDER !
60% of Dobermanns sick with some disease that is going to kill them.
ReplyDeleteWhat will it be in 2/3 years. Eventually the breed will kill each other.
No help from DV or IDC. The two organizations that should be protecting the breed are ignoring the problems. I would rather have good health than a title.
Sorry guys, all of you have a lot nice ideas how to save our beloved breed.
ReplyDeleteBUT UNFORTUNATELY ANYONE OF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE PROBLEM IS THE LEADERSHIP IN THE DOBERMANN-WORLD!!!
We must think about how to get rid of the leading people like Wiblishauser, Becht, etc.
This is the gist/foundation for any constructive and sustainable reforms!!!
Still those people hold sway over the rules, over the business, we will nothing achieve!!! And the race Dobermann will stop to exist!
We must replace the purchasable morons by competent and honourable people. And after that we give thought to save our breed.
ReplyDeleteThere is no chance to eliminate the corrupt swamp of DV.
You have to leave the anonymity and tell everyone: "I leave the DV because ......."
Then many will follow this example and a new and better society is possible.
The problem is genetical and after score of years , there do not remained more alternatives . Was needed other 10 years to understand the problems of this breed . 10 losted years .
ReplyDeleteNow will need another 10 years to change something in this system and to preserve actual genepool . The problem is that the actual genepool can't be improved on health .
To improve the health of imense number of actual dobermanns is needed INFUSION OF HEALTHY DOBERMANNS . 1) the system is not ready to accept them , they are eliminated from shows , show breeders still do not want them 2) all the longevive lines are almost extincted and mixed , the last genersations are every year losted in anonimity .
Doberman race have more than a political problem. Have a BIG GENETICAL PROBLEM .
This is my opinion , and I know very well what i say.
The health of the breed is very poor if people take 10 years to study the problem then it will be too late to correct the issues. Things are getting worse every year.
ReplyDeletePersonal i losted 10 years talking about that problems which now are started to be accepted by all . 10 losted years . The inercy is huge , we will need anothers 10 years to really change something.. keep in mind that .
ReplyDeleteI am a European living in Europe. I found Dobermans with cropped ears most beautiful and excellent deterrent against burglars, because of their image. I was unable to acquire a cropped Dob because of our (IMO stupid and intolerant. why not ban then first human cropping = circumcision? or kosher / halal meat which makes animals suffer?) laws in Western Europe. Eventually I acquired a “natural” one, but it looks too nice for acting as a dissuasive dog and when it is with us – and the more with guests – it wags its tails so strongly that everything falls (drinks on slow table) or gets damaged (flat screen TV), etc. = catastrophic.
ReplyDeleteI looked at the statistics of a few European countries re. registered births of registered races. After green lobbyists succeeded in passing these laws against cropping dogs, etc., most people stopped acquiring Dob's , incl. private persons and went for German Shepherds or Pit bulls (Am Staff.) or Rottweiler, and more recently Belgian Shepherd and Cane Corso. People want a deterrent dog with raised ears like a German shepherd, or otherwise impressive (pit bull, Rottweiler, Cane Corso). The Doberman population has dramatically collapsed, becoming insignificant, they do not even account for the half of the population of Swiss Shepherd. (e.g. only between 500 and 1000 dobs born yearly for a big country like France with 60 millions inhabitants!).
The new laws were catastrophic for dob breeders, most had to reconvert to other races.
I suggest world breeder should do not abandon the breed like breeders did in the EU, as non-EU breeders are not constrained by leftist laws as is the case with the European Union undemocratic decisions. Since you still can legally breed cropped dobs (what most people want) : do continue to breed them, but fight by organizing alternative competitions and boycott the IDC, and at least go on using your national standards. Do not waste the chance of having legal freedom to go on cropping, freedom is an invaluable good, a chance we don't have in Western Europe.
And this is the only good thing : I was negative about countries such as the USA or the UK for not being member of the IDC. Now I understand and think they are right. The IDC is too undemocratic, and does absurd things : 1st only cropped and docked dobermans were allowed; then "natural" dobs are allowed in the name of tolerance; and then the opposite happens, and the traditional authentic doberman is banned! (leftist always vindicate things in the name of tolerance, and when they get it they intolerantly ban traditional things). What the DV did to the dob is a such a scandal! Shame on them and on the way the IDC works!
Maybe it is also time to standardize a race derived from the current dob and with the same character, the Canis Panther. It has always striked me when I looked at the original ancient pictures of the first dobs that they were stronger built, and just look like the Canis Panther.
Continuing the previous post, to show you how things are absurd in Europe. Taking again the case of France :
ReplyDelete- on one hand bull fighting (corrida) is allowed because the cities were it happens make a lot of tourist money with it and have a strong lobby
- Brigitte Bardot, "lover" of dogs (in several senses...) lobbied strongly at European level against "dog mutilation" or "suffering". Her lobbying power is so strong that she managed to have the excellent show Dog Whisperer (by Cesar Milan) censored (it was banned from French TV and selling the DVD s not allowed in France), because in one of the shows Cesar has to use a special collar to restrain a dominant uneducated strong adult dog from pulling on the leash...
Initiaves to save the Doberman from extinction in Europe failed, dob breeders and owners don't have a strong lobby like he Green or Brigitte Bardot's
(example of failed initiative for saving the Dobermann :
http://www.vomdeutschengeist.com/petition/LE%20DOBERMANN.pdf )
The problem is that European Union superstate dictatorship is that they are not content with legally banning ear-cropping in Europe but want to forward their ideological agenda worldwide and had been putting the DV under pressure in this direction. Some people say they that they threatened putting dobs under the list of (banned or obliged to be muzzled) dangerous dogs (so-called "Rasseliste" in Germany) to blackmail the DV, if they did not change the standard.
One more thing in addition to my two posts from Europe. One should not be naive and think that arguments about the future of the doberman race could change the mind of the people ruining the race here in Europe. Setting aside selfish interest (own dob, kennel, friends) of people not protecting the race, the people behind its destruction do not care about it, they will never be convinced by arguments about it becoming virtually extinct, about its lack of genetic variety, DCM and the fall of the life expectancy below 6 years (catching up short-lived races like the Great Dane!)...
ReplyDeleteAll they care about is animal rights. It is all linked to the leftist, feminized love and peace spirit of the age in Europe, the hippies of the sixties have made careers and are in charge : "awful, this macho torturing these brave animal, mutilating their ears and tail. How terrible I am weeping". There is no hope the spirit of the age will change in the coming decades (on the contrary, green ideas have being taken over by rightist politicians such as Sarkozy or Merkel) in Europe. So one should not hope to change things with the DV, IDC, FCI.
The only hope is :
- fighting within associations such as the AKC for defending the maintenance of the doberman standard
- and even stronger setting a parallel, competing (the DV, IDC, FCI) organisation to bypass the FCI certification.
Certainly there is a strong need to make quite useful the DPCA : get positions of influence there before it is too late and set it into action. This is crucial.
you talk too much about details.
ReplyDeleteFirst, you have to call your name and say, "I walk away from the DV".
You're going to wonder how many follow you.
Please don't look to the AKC or DPCA to solve issues with the race.
ReplyDeleteDPCA has less than 2000 members and AKC is one of many national kennel clubs in America. Google States Kennel Club, National Kennel Club, United Kennel Club and Contentinal Kennel Club. All clubs that register dogs. If an American doesn't like one club they can register their dogs with another or several at the same time. I have attended two DPCA National Shows and both were a joke. Very low quality.
@dobermann-verein-ev.de
ReplyDeleteYou are too naive. Nobody will follow you if you say your name and leave the DV! Nobody! Or how many people did leave the DV after you went?
The DV laugh about you and your new association.
Some posts above somebody said first of all the leadership has to be replaced. And he is definitively right!
You can have the best breeding system. But all of this is completely useless until the responsible persons are corrupt and don't give a fuck on the race. As long as you can buy results, titles, etc. the best breeding system is futile!
The new leadership has to follow some ethical rules in the sense of the rase. And after that we can start to fight against the commercial breeders which have no clue about breeding and are only interested in money.
The process will be very hard an exhausting. But the initiate point is a new leadeship!!!
New Leadership
ReplyDeleteI suggest people get busy finding Vogel, Richter and Kollenberg.
They may not want to join but they will provide leadership information.
A path to a better Dobermann with their years of responsible breeding and
running large clubs. Use their expertise.
There will be no change in the DV!
ReplyDeleteToo many lick Wilblishausers ass.
Even if he dies, there will be no change. It will follow only one of his toadies.
Despite all the errors Wiblishauser is elected and over again.
Maybe it's naive to think a new club is required.
I think it's the only chance.
This opportunity is small because the gene pool is so small.
And time is running
The genepool almost do not exist . There exist only trend dogs from trend bloodlines fully by ilnesses . That genials with zero genetial knowledge destroyed forever dobermann genepool , breed health and true character .
ReplyDeleteAnd a extreme numbers of breeders are so ignorant about genetics and genepool the 80 percent. They mate with a champion. Nothing more!
ReplyDeleteI do not know if these breeders are ignorant about genetics but more worried about marketing the litter.
ReplyDeletethye are ignorants, if you speak about inbreed on a dog, the fix you with round cows eyes, and don't understand nothing....and use the same dogs, orson , toscano, alamo, and soo on, same dogs same genetics same stupid people,,and the circle is perfect.
ReplyDelete" they are ignorants, if you speak about inbreed on a dog, they fix you with round cows eyes, and don't understand nothing....and use the same dogs "
ReplyDelete-----------------
Is so simply... the Galton law said that any animal inherited genetic 50% from mother and 50% from father ,;25% from each grand-parent ; 12.5% from each grand-grand parent .
In any chromosome and genome , the any dominant gene is doubled by a alele recesive one . When fecundation happen , dominant from father + dominant from mother = dominant on pupy ; recesive from father + recesive from mother = dominant on pupy ; dominant + recesive = dominant but carrier . When similar genes are meeted, even are recesive , the dominance of characters , good or not good , appear . Because in genetic nothing is losted , the presance again and again of same trend ill showlines , from genetical view , mutiplied the bad genes in a aritmetical progresion and incidance of diseases increase arithemtical .
In second when the real longevive dobermanns genetic will be covered by actual ill genetic , all will be losted and HELL will cover dobermann breed .
In this recesive mode , hided in genetic recesive genes ,helped by their poligenetic character , the diseases filled step by step the entire race background . In simply words, that happened !
I saw that years ago and I was terrified by what I finded .
That is important for understanding how diseases complete cover entire breed genetic . If that show lines dominace wil continue , without pure and clear genetic refresh the dobermann race is forever damned !
Theoretically all of you have a dream from the rescue the breed.
ReplyDeleteOnly practical, it creates no beginning.
This discuss the details does not help.
If you do not close together, there is no way to bring about a change.
The truth is only 1 all want's wins!
ReplyDeleteSo they are all scared by judges, and, the president of DV and all his judges...
All want wins because they want to sell the pupies and because vanity. Dobermsn world is transformed in a indistry ,advertising place .
ReplyDeleteWhy must we obey the verein they are only one body why can we not form a new club hold our own shows and register Dobermanns only in this day and age people are doing there on thing worldwide so less talk and give people power a chance if we don't the Dobermann will be gone.
ReplyDeleteT.H.C.
T.H.C Why!!!! Just because all this is fake!!!! All the countries clubs are absolutely fake, they do not defend the country and the national breeders. That is the truth! Is fake the countries clubs call AIAD, BDC, DCF, HDK, ÖDK, DCE and many, many, more. The real name must be, Dobermann Verein-Italy, Dobermann Verein- Belgium, Dobermann Verein-France, and so on. Is a real outrage, insult, what the little Geheime Staatspolizei men’s do in their countries, that is the real problem, nothing more, all else is talk, talk, talk. Without an Dobermann Nuremberg Court all is bullshit. Think
ReplyDeleteCompletely all right with you, the French club is not interested in his breeders, and it is the even worse with Jean-Paul Godart arrival as president !!!
ReplyDeleteAll this is bullshit !!!
Guys, who Anonymous April 14, 2014 at 4: 13 PM says is right. All advantage and benefit is only for the board of the countries clubs, who feed this shit. I really don't understand what the people do! WTF can vote who is a DV dummy! Asshole
ReplyDeleteWhen I see WDB now and see that Massimo is using the page to advertise his book. It tells you everything you need to know about WDB. Big sell out. Only interested in making money and not about saving the Dobermann breed.
ReplyDelete