Tuesday, July 16, 2013

KO-WRONG?

Der Zentralkörung 2013

HANS, PLEASE EXPLAIN?  


As much as we wanted to have faith and optimism for the breed this year.... we must report on a truly strange and puzzling event which recently occurred in Germany. We speak of the Korung 2013, as organized by the DV [ Franken ] on June 29, 2013.

Basically.. one dog actually ran off during the gunshot test... BUT - WAS ALLOWED TO REPEAT THE TEST.....and in the end, secured the rating of 1B ! We just do not understand this.... 


The Flag that raises Questions...
Who is the dog in question and its handler, owner?


TITIAKA VON KARPATIA... AND HER OWNER, HANDLER - TAMAS DOHOCZKI....



First, let us remind ourselves what is the Korung and what are some of the rules-

KORUNG was established in 1969 by Ottmar Vogel, and is supposed to be the pinnacle of achievement for the German Dobermann and is used to  identify the dogs that are “elite” in both character and conformation.
The Korung is a test of health, character, and structure all together in on “Zentralkorung.” 
To pass the Korung, the dog has to endure a supreme test of character and conformation. The test is always 
judged by the Korung Kommission. This consists of the Club’s President, the Chief Breed Warden, and the Chief responsible for the working qualities of the Doberman.

“The Korung Temperament Test is more difficult than the ZTP or Schutzhund 3, with emphasis placed on choosing outstanding examples of courage, hardness, and fighting spirit.”
[ Ottmar Vogel ]

The Korung can only be passed by dogs with outstanding temperament and structure...



Now, let us explain one part of the test - [ the gunshot part ]

Here, two dogs are paired in the down position for the evaluation of steadiness to gun shots. The dog must not show any unsteadiness.  During this part of the test the dog should not appear to be under any stress and should behave with self-confidence. 

" The gun fire will be done 15 to 20 meters away from the dog. Dogs that show unsureness to this will be disqualified."  Gunshot shy dogs are to be immediately separated from the the Koerung.



 SO WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY?

Tititaka Von Karpatia, was in the down position when the gunshots were fired.. 
she ran..

What happened -  during this gun shooting, she left her place and ran to Tamas. Then the judges stop them, and finish, after that Wibli and Daube went to the judge and told him to repeat....Thats right - to REPEAT that test!

And only when the test was repeated, she remained in down for the shooting, and so Tamas' Körüng was success.

And she got a rating of 1B!
[ and this being her Korung ZVA... She has the Angekort now! ]

Now let us remind ourselves of the ratings-

The dogs ratings are as follows.. Koerklasse 1A, 1B, 2A , 2B.... and take note that Koerklasse I classified dogs are recommended to be bred.
"These dogs that receive this rating are far and above the average dog. They must have excellent structure and work ethic to receive this rating."

And here we have a Dobermann whose first reactions was to run from the gunshot.... rated Korung 1B.

The results are all here:  Koerung 2013 Results



So we do wonder....

  • How can the trial be stopped for this dog, handler.. and then resumed as if nothing happened?
  • How can it be possible to give another chance in the middle of what is supposed to be the most demanding and  challenging of all tests for the breed?
  • What is really going on there between the judges? What if it was someone else's dog?
  • Please, we simply ask Mr President and Mr Warden, is this a new rule or only for very special circumstances for special people [ who used the right dogs for breeding ] ?
  • Maybe there can be an explanation or inform these new rules of Korung at the IDC Congress?





We also wonder if the rumor that Tamas flies a German flag at his home is true?.....



Afternote: 

Titiaka and all the others present are good dogs for sure, and to have made it to the Korung even as participants, they have our admiration. But, we really are puzzled and dissapointed.... and again, disillusioned by the actions of those who were meant to Protect, Preserve and Strengthen the Dobermann as a working breed.... and not simply making favors and concessions to each other...

as always.. YOU BE THE JUDGE.

But to those who did pass the Korung fairly.. we applause them and the hard work and dedication of the trainers and handlers.. And tho those whose dogs got a lower rating.. well, we feel bad you were not as privileged to restart your trial. 


97 comments:

  1. I just want everyone to know that TITIAKA VON KARPARTIA DON'T HAVE GERMAN ADPr and that my friends is a CONDITION for Körung!!!!!!!!!!

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  2. neither had India von Karpatia and she too passed Korung

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  3. One can tell that Mr. Dohoczki was deeply embarrassed by this shameless act solely by observing his eyes on the second photo in this post. And he should be because what he agreed upon is just fucking shameless. SHAME ON YOU!

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  4. It is just one of many scandalous scenes on this famous event.

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  5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WUOFIHX27g

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  6. Shame/Scandal, Inappropriate Judging / Schemeing / does not seem to bother these people as they think we are all idiots, it would be very interesting to hear their particlar reasoning on this event and why the owner is given a second chance. A collusion of ALL 3 wibli, daube and tamas. Yes - lower case letters because they do not deserve more. Next joke will be the more than laughable IDC. Its such a pity that such a great dog is made a public mockery of.

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  7. yes... look the Korung of Vivian von Klimbach, is an normal easy ZTP! IA
    This is a shame!

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  8. Aber liebe Vivian ist nicht Ausländer

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  9. Shame on YOU Tamas. How can you accept this title?

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  10. Tamas knows no shame.

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  11. This casts a shadow of doubts to all the other dogs they have titled in past decades, both on shows and trials.
    Who knows how our breed would look and feel like if these people were not where they are. Most probably for better.

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  12. DV Koerungs are an exercise in the blind leading the blind. Ask yourself, what ARE such unqualified people doing judging something like a Koerung anyway? Wiblishauser has never trained ANY dog himself to any SchH/IPO title in his life (although he lies about this in his resume) so how can he judge character and working ability when he wouldn't know what it was. He cannot understand let alone explain something basic like active aggression. None of these Koer "Meister" has the depth of background necessary to judge an event like this. The famous working Dobermann breeder, Norbert Schmitz (v.d. Weyermuehle)once openly crticized Wiblishauser at a Koerung event saying, "that man has NO PLACE in this breed." Ottmar Vogel has been the only Koer-Meister with the credentials that qualified him to judge Koerung but Wiblishauser, using his usual dishonest politics and abuse of his position, pushed out these and other highly qualified breed people and filled up the Vorstand and administration with his own tame, uncritical Yes Men, who also happen to have no cynological qualifications worth recording, or ethics either. This DV President is a failed leader. He does not fertilize the way for good breeders to evolve, but instead works to rid the breed of it's most competent people because qualified people are a threat to him and his cronies. The breed is just a platform from which Wiblishauser can demonstrate his power & status - and provide him with his tax free income of course. Hans Wiblishauser will be remembered as the person that presided over the dismantling of the German Dobermann as a serious working dog breed. He attracts mediocrity - surrounding himself with know-nothings and opportunists. People that support this circus are just as guilty by assisting him send the German Dobermann down the road to perdition. Es ist ein Trauerspiel.

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  13. Zentralkörung 2013
    How is it possible.
    Are there no other judges more?
    W. Cohnen who always approves competitions C (IDC) around the world?
    H. Wiblishauser, T. Becht and N. Daube; over the world ZTP and Shows, even at a ZTP dobermanns with bad character and bites, also gives 1A.
    Are they friends of them?
    T. Becht have always his breedingdogs at number 1.

    Where are the other fair judges, those can not judge dobermanns?

    Protection
    Dog sports is team sport??
    Or not, if you see the last körung there are also no fair bitehelpers that the dog a fair shot to bite.
    Or is this by order of the judge?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WUOFIHX27g
    I have a police dog, let this bitehelper try with my dog.

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  14. Der Teufel steckt im Detail.

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  15. The only 2 virtues needed for success with DV Germans are:
    1. to speak a proper German, because they don't speak any other language properly
    2. to have no face nor spine = total obedience
    And guess what, Tamas Dohoczki has both of them!

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  16. Excuse me, please, but besides the corruption... Isn't this in general a stupid test anyway?! Who the fu** really needs a gunshot proof dog (Doberman - not a hound needed for hunting) unless for their own personal EGO! Poor dogs anyway in the hands of egomaniac people. So no wonder lies and deception is everywhere!

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  17. Excuse me, but gunshot is also used in IPO, so do your homework before making such obscure comments.

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  18. Salon Dobermann owners are doing exactly the same damage to the breed as these crooks from "zie leadership". They are pretty much the same, as is the result itself - an incapable Dobermann. Each to its own right.

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  19. So your dog needs IPO because of your profession? In that case let me put it another way: I hate the fact that this all has become show-business. Mostly for people who need to boost their own ego (and filling their wallet). The dogs are often trained and treated just like shit, but all of this happens behind closed curtains... using all sorts of "training devices"...

    But what I have seen is cancer, spondylosis, DCM, hyperthyroidism and head tremor and all of this in my own dogs.

    Now you tell me that gunshot testing is most important for this breed and what these people are doing is responsible.

    It's all for show... who really cares about the dogs mental and physical well-being?

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  20. NOBODY trains nor holds TOP show dog like shit! The only shit treatment that appears is from Dobermann Club authorities to the Dobermann people all over Europe.

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  21. I urge national clubs to vote down their Tamas-like presidents and show some basic resistance to the crooked scheme of DV/IDC. Have some decency and basic integrity and take such personalities down because they don't deserve to be your leaders, otherwise you, the members of the clubs are just as crooked and weak as they are - nothing but the puppets in these old men's trembling hands and that's just disgusting.

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  22. This is simply outrageous.

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  23. I know that the bithelper R. Kraus acted this peculiar way (first part) because he was instructed by the Koerkomission. As far as I know he was surprised too.
    The second part was o.k. but the first parts at the blinds were terrible and at most unfair.
    So please don't think wrong about the bitehelper, he is only a puppet too.

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  24. So what was not fair with Savon at the Koerung?
    The Helper came out very early, the sleve was presented properly. The dog did bite the elbow instead the middle of the sleve. The helper even steped backwards to give the dog a chance to rebite. He did not. Then it is the job of the helper to detekt the weakness of the dog. At least the dog did bite with one tooth the top of the sleeve. Such dog does not deserve to be angekoert

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  25. The helper can not step back when the dog miss the first bite,and not turning from the attacking dog with hiding sleeve on his left side. You wrong, he don't give him chance to bite.Thats why could he bite only in the front of the sleeve at the end. This could happened only if he( helper,or judge or who knows who) want to this dog fail the koerung.But if the koerung so strong and unfair ,why was different the helper act with other dogs in the second chance to bite? I don't want to argue,i just say what i see.Maybe we see different. One more thing. The judge can stop the bitework when the dog dont want to bite or showing fear. Did you see like this??

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  26. Need to add:
    If you watch the other videos of Savon, one can see, that he always goes after the elbow, the thin and soft part of the sleeve. If one knows that, and try Koerung anyway, one should not complain about the helper afterwards. This is unfair.

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  27. Savon did not miss the first bite. He did bite the elbow and did not rebite when he had the chance as the helper steped backwards. In this case it is the job of the helper to put more pressure on the dog to detekt weakness. The dog opened the grip and at least did bite the top.
    Do not forget, it is Koerung and not some kind of kindergarden game.

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  28. To my post from July 21, 2013 at 9:45 PM

    I have to say that I have seen many Koerungen live and this was the unfairest Koerung ever.

    I did not want to protect Savon. In my opinion this dog really don't had a good day.

    I better meant the reason why all dogs who failed the Koerung this year was the first part at the blinds.

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  29. Seriously,people! Do you see any weakness in Savon's production?!On that movement when the chance to bite on the sleeve is not possible,but the stick is working fast and pushin away with legs and lock out from the bite with the hips and the body,the weak dog is stopped or move back from the helper. The helper step back and turn because the dog attack back and clearly want to reach the sleeve and bite.If he shows any weakness, believe me the helper would pushing him untill he run away. Please see te other dogs video.For example Wizzar of Oz DGV. He is a great dog.Im talking the helper movement when he missing the first bite in the long attack.That is totally different helper movement.Why???

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  30. Yes, I see weakness! The ellbow in this case is the most far point to bite for the dog. He did choose it because of his weakness, that he shows on other vids too. I would like to see a video of his first try. I bet, same problem.
    I have also failed with my dog at Koerung once. I did know of the first bite problem of my dog which occured occasionally. We tryed and failed. My fault, not the helpers fault.
    Also I have been helper for more than 30 years. Belive me, I can see if something unfair. In Savon´s case there was nothing.
    It is not the job of the helper to destroy a dog or make it run. His job is to make weakness obvious. In the past I have seen Koerungs, which were really unfair. The helper ran throuh the dogs and injured them seriousely.
    So, if there is something else to complain, please post the URL of the video, that I can take a look on it. Complaining without proof is unfair too.

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  31. For example 1 year ago:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzBy69-Kp9Q
    And this is a puppy-sleeve.

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  32. Actually,i don't want convince you.We see things differently.Wich is no problem at all.Savon has a learned bad behavior( the ellbow thing).Yes.You can find videos about it because its not a secret.See hes product in Bende cup this year.There are the same problem,especially in the escape.Right.But he bite back no matter how and hold.

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  33. I do not want to bash Savon. He for sure is a very nice Dobermann and beloved by his owners. I really love how he looks like. But we are talking about Koerung and fairness. And Savon is a bit to nice to pass it.
    Maybe it is not the dog itself but wrong training and easy bites? I do not know. I can only judge what I see. In this case I did not see anything unfair of the helper. The owner should apologize if it was he that called the helper unfair.
    So it seems to be always the point of view if one feels that something is unfair. If one passes, the helper was great and fair. If one fails, the helper was biased, instructed and unfair.
    When I fail, I try first to find out:
    Was it me? (different behavior as usual)
    Was something wrong with the preperation of my dog?
    Is my dog not strong enough?
    Has the envirornment influence?
    If I can seriously deny all this, then I feel it is o.k. to question fairness.

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  34. Savon's performance has pretty similar elements as his father's performance last year on AIAD. So don't forget the genetics. The training can improve some things, but in difficult situations or tests the undergoing problem will show on surface.
    Anyway, praises for his owner, who put big effort to prepare dog for the toughest character test.

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  35. "Anyway, praises for his owner, who put big effort to prepare dog for the toughest character test."

    The owner also made mistake by stopping the walk in disbelief to the judge who hesitated in giving the nod to the helper. An old nerve wrecking technique invented by Germans in order to cut the focus of the dog and to enter the nervousness to the handler.

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  36. "So what was not fair with Savon at the Koerung?
    ...Such dog does not deserve to be angekoert"

    Does this kind of "does not deserve" go to Mr. Dohozcki's dog as well?

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  37. And how about Rellaps Forrest, the dog of mediocre performance, biting on the edge of biting surface, almost to the elbow, and letting go with great reluctancy endlessly chewing the sleeve.

    Rellaps Forrest (2A) First bite video

    Rellaps Forrest (2A) Long attack video

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  38. Does this kind of "does not deserve" go to Mr. Dohozcki's dog as well?
    I can not answer the question, because I was not there and did not see what happend.
    Fact is, that the Koercommission can decide to repeat a test, depending on the circumstances, which I do not know. Seems like, that Mr. Dohoczki has not only friends. Spectators can be unfair sometimes too. If the dog is noise sensitive, I would clearly say, that the dog do not deserve to be Angekoert ZVA.
    Obviousely there was no problem at the 2nd try.
    To be 100% sure, that there is no nerve-issue, I would have fired the 9mm gun once more during the protection part and would have taken a close look on the grip of the dog, after the gun was fired. This would proof anything, because nobody trains such a situation. Regardig her rating 1B:
    1 means excellent conformation, B means that there were issues with the character asessment. This can occure during measurment, behavior in the group and of course behavior after the gunshots. If there would be a serve problem with the gunshots, the problem would be visible after the 2nd try too.
    Maybe one that witnessed the situation can give a unbiased description of the bevavior of the dog after the gunshots.

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  39. Seems that every exercise can be repeated. Why didn't they repeat Savon's attack then?

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  40. Seems like that Koercommission can do whatever they want.

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  41. Regarding Rellaps Forest, I would have given him a B rating.
    The grips are full and hard and they are still in hard space of the sleeve. The chewing is not nice. But the server problem to me is, that he has had his fur raised in the neck and on back. This is for me a sign of a nerve issue.

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  42. OK then and what about that Titiaka v Karpatia's ADPr. Does she have German ADPr or not?

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  43. And the ears, the ears were down and on aside all the time. Forrest was under a lot of pressure, both from handler and the figurant. I wouldn't give him pass for that. Koerung should be more of a character test than exercise in obedience/attack. In my opinion Savon showed much more fighting spirit than Forrest, despite the fact that he missed the proper bite, much to figurant's behavior too. The dog is not the greatest specimen by looks, but has displayed far more courage than Forrest which is a made dog. Anyway, Körung for Dobermanns was established so the less appealing dogs can get their own value.

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  44. Forrest deserved to pass with B rating. He did hold the grip and released at least after 3 commands. This is, what is neccessary. But the late releasing is also a sign of a nerve issue and so never an A rating.

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  45. It was REALLY close call. If they really want to make Körung functional they should give only two marks: pass - no pass. Same goes for ZTP and that would tighten the breed furthermore. Otherwise, they just spill murkiness to it!

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  46. FACT IS - A KORUNG WAS REPEATED! BIG CHEATS! AND WITH JUDGES WHO ALSO ARE IN OUR SHOWS AND AT IDC! HOW CAN WE EVER TRUST ANYTHING OR ANY RESULTS ANYMORE???

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  47. I don't know what is your probleme with Rellaps Forrest? If you were present on Körung you could it seen (if not I tell you now): from 24 dogs only 7 didn't picked down from the figurant, one of them was Forrest! This is a fact all the other is only a "biophilosophy" of few envious people!!!

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  48. Sweeping statements do not help.
    We should try to keep the discussion objectively.
    I thougt about Forrest´s A rating and I guess I know, why Mr. Kohnen decided this way.
    The first time I watched the videos without sound. Forrest did remember me immediately to the Dobermanns of the old days. Some nerve issue but a grip like a vise. Maybe the decicion for A-rating was not correctly. But maybe we need some of these specimens for the breed.
    I agree to the pass/fail idea!

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  49. This is a very pitiable! So spiteful envious and jealous dobermann owners and breeders are not seen in the world... be ashamed of yourselves. Instead of a popularizing the breed you kill each others in front of everyone...disgusting!

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  50. I was present on the Körung the Forrest Rellaps fighting instinct was one of the best, he is a really Dobermann I'm thinking to mate with him!
    Savon was soft like his father .....

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  51. Hey people, week up! Titicaca v. Karpatia is a 7,5 years dobermann why don't you talk about her 2 perfect bites? At this age is a fantastic work look her videos!!!!

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  52. Who do you want to mated with Rellaps Forrest? O'Finity King of Darkness?hahaha

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  53. Unfourtunetly O'Finity isn't my dog. I1m from Romania and I'm proud because Forrest is a romanian breeded dog and his fighting instinct is 100% more then your "brave" Savon who was run awey last year on Körung, hen the judge get close to him!!!!!

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  54. I see DrKocs is very active on the debate here. The only problem is that just he suffers from the same degree of "courage" as he claims to his own dog - Forrest, so he doesn't sign the comments.

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  55. If you came to IDC we can talk about face to face! My name is Cristi!

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  56. hi there, why we discuss here if Savon strong or weak? Here we should shout about how did his job helper. Why anyone didnt pointed out: only with a single male helper walked away from the dog, turned away to the other side of dog, turned away sleeve from the dog ?
    While the rules of any trials clearly written: helper must keep the pressure to the dog no matter what happens.
    The video clearly shows: helper doing his best not to give the dog a chance to make a bite. Yeah, maybe another dog would have been more successful in this fight. But.
    With all the other dogs helper did other style of work. Here we have to talk about the double standard in everything in our breed.
    And it's not the only Korung where for the “right” dog was given a second chance. Remember the history.
    And we must ask: why helper did such dirty work with only one dog?
    Looking for such “style” of work have to really think twice before inviting helper of such a level to any test.
    The result of the work such “professionals” can be at least failed test, the maximum - serious injury of the dog.
    And if helper executes someone's order - this is dangerous much more…

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  57. Are you able to read?
    I have proofed, that the helper gave Savon his chance. He needed to act different to give the dog the chace to get a better grip.
    Compare the attack out of the blind with Forrest.
    If the helper would have went straight forward, as like as with Forrest, Savon would have been off immediately.
    If you have no clue, stop to slinger shit at the helper. The slow motion shows clearly that it was the dog that failed and not the helper.

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  58. Yes, more than you can imagine :-)
    My friend, seems to me you have problems with understanding . Also you have problems with comparative analysis. For example - the action of helper. You will not be able to understand: He did the dirty work with only one dog. By the way, I dont think that Savon was the only and the weakest dog on last Korung. Did he?
    Have you read any rules of any behavioral test with a bite work? Actions of helper should always be the same, with all dogs, no matter what dogs do: they attack the helper or run away from him.
    The conversation in this thread should not be about the quality of the dogs presented to Korung. But about the people who are in the leadership of our breed. They allow yourself to do whatever they want.
    If your personal outlook is narrow - it's just your personal problem, my friend.
    Most Dobermanns fans are tired of the theater, which we see for many years. And we are not just spectators there. We pay our money for “show must go on”.
    If you are satisfied with the quality of judging most of the shows and trials, including Korung - I don’t.

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  59. So please explain what was dirty of the helper in Savon`s case.

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  60. Hello Everyone! My name is Pityinger Jozsef.Im the owner and handler of Savon.I just like to make few things clear.I ain't commented untill now.I aint say any bad about anybodies dog.Im not compaire Savon with other dogs.It wasn't me. Its importand for me because i know that ewerybody loves their dogs.If somebody go and be a part of any public event,then take the risk to being chritique.Wich is no problem.Ewerybody have to accept this. About the korung: We were there, we tryed,and we failed. Of course i didn't like what happened there.Because i learnd different things in the dogsport.But this is the past.We work for the next race,and i hope my dog can show his real value. By the way, i really thanks who try to defend us and thanks for the constructive critique.

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  61. I thought this post was about Dirty Tamas.

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  62. Thank you Jozsef!
    This is real sportsmenship. As I said bfeore, I did never want to bash your dog. I wish you success with Savon.
    The biggest problem is, that many people confuse Koerung and ZTP with dogsport. It is not sport and no competition. It is a test for each particular dog.
    If you trial in IPO, you can fail as often as you want. At Koerung and ZTP you have only 2 trys maximum.
    So keep up the good work and advice your helper to solve the ellbow problem.

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  63. Need to add: There are sleeves availabel that prevent wrong bites.

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  64. For all that have problems with opening the discussion with Internet Explorer, like me, use Firefox, then it will work.

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  65. What a bunch of experts over here! I would really like to see your credentials and before that I would like to see the credentials and references of DV judges like Wiblishauser, Daube, Becht, Cohnen or even Pezzano working with the dogs!!!!!!!!
    This test is of variable values as is ZTP itself. Forget this Körshit and go to IPO competitions. That is where your dogs can show their full potential.

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  66. Different opinion:
    A bunch of idiots with no clue but unfortunately only few experts. I guess Willi Cohnen has some credentials as handler, helper and judge.
    So, because you asked, what are yours?
    Do you really think IPO is better with all the fake stuff that is going on there? Within the SV there was a group founded, that visit IPO trials to check what is going on there. What the heck, there was one trial, not long ago, over 3 days. 25 dogs wantet to trial, 19 dogs went sick, as the "Initiativgruppe" showed up, 6 trialed, 5 failed, one passed with BH.

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  67. I was quite specific: IPO COMPETITIONS, not IPO trial. Can't cheat on that. Everything is very obvious.

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  68. So, at least the Koerung is also a very public event. IDC Championship, almost the same discussion afterwards. All breed competition, you will seldom see a Dobermann, unfortunately.

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  69. Ever wondered why GSD has no ZTP, but Körung only?
    Also, why is that there is just several classes on SV show, while IDC looks more like FCI show with all its classes? To me, it is great shame to mimic FCI show on annual Club show. DV should reconsider their ways and look upon SV organisation. I am sure many of IDC Siegers wouldn't pass a common SV courage test, let alone anything complicated that spells with first three letters of alphabet.

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  70. Oh yes! SV-Körung is so tough! :-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEG9ARUWj_E

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  71. If you want tough have a pit bull!
    What is the point of a test that only few dogs per year are allowed to pass? What does that do the Dobermann breed in general? Let's be honest, only few people really go for Körung per sportisch reasons. Most others are doing it in hope that the dogs will get better score in mating or litter sales, because their dogs are not top class in terms of phenotype, let alone of genotype.
    To me Körung is not a true sport but a matter of ego, cockiness of false elite, which commonly ends up in greater frustration and despair for some, not to mention harsh treatment that your dog will receive for no sane reason at all.
    As I said before: go to IPO competition and only then let us see what are both you and your dog made of.

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  72. Koerung and ZTP are no sport and no competiton, as said before.
    Why do you think that dogs, wich are prepared for Koerung get other or more harsh treatment than dogs that are prepared for IPO competition?

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  73. Because there is no political trial repetition in IPO competition, unlike what we've seen in recent Körung.

    You see, IPO is all about precision - both in competing and judging, while that is not always the case in murky waters of so called character tests, judged by people of little or no character at all.

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  74. You are really funny, or have no clue too. No politics in IPO competition? I can´t stop laughing!
    What about Sabine and Lennox v. Aurachgrund which received place 2 at the all breed German Championship of DHV in 2006. Nice result for such a exotic breed in this kind of competition one would think.
    On he other hand, the spectators did see her and Lennox in the 1st Place and protested loudly. And this behavior of spectators is not common at such events.

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  75. Hello stupid, stop mentioning A SINGLE examples!

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  76. Stupid is obviously trying to justify the Koerung.

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  77. Stupid is, to think that there are no politics in IPO-sport. I mentioned the above example because a Dobermann was involved.
    Another example: VDH championship 2006 Eibenstock. A very prominent dog/handler team got after two flybys in C exactly the necessary amount of points to catch a ticket for the FCI championship. No politics?

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  78. It is very interesting that all the monkey business is taking place in Germany.

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  79. Since I am in Germany, I know what is going on in Germany. Do you belive that there is no "monkey" business elsewhere?

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  80. Germany is mother of all monkeys, at least in this sport. Do you think it's normal that you have one man ruling the club for 4 decades now? That's 40 years. Is it possible tha DV members are submitted to the failed house painter? Seems that it takes to fail in paintings in general to rule the Germany every now and then.

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  81. Friends anonymous all this it is bullshit a real shit all clubs in world this is the point the members of the board have a single purpose take their advantage for himself and friends and in the name of the Dobermann breed attack others who are not your friends and do not support their ROGUERY. The serious people the serious breeders do not want to know the policy dedicated their lives only your dogs many neither want to be judges. How many serious breeders reminds you? Do you don’t know anyone? I lots of them. The big problem is everyone talk all protest but all are like lambs in the clubs and all feeding them. All the members of the board know very well that can do all the shit you are always there. You guys don't need the clubs but they need you. Wake up and stop being stupid. All talk talk talk but do nothing. SHUT UP!! Lambs

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  82. With all these complaints, surely there are enough disgruntled people to form another club? How about the European Dobermann Club? And why not work together to invent a new character test, which is objective and not overseen by a handful of people, but rather a rotation of working sport judges who have judged at the biggest FCI working events?

    Anonymous above is right, lots of complaining, but how about banding together to actually do something? Stop supporting the people you claim to be crook - stop paying for ZTPs, Körungs, IDC show entries. There are enough big Dobermann shows in existence. Boycott those things at least if you have no interest in getting organized and making something more tangible happen.

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  83. This is a very good and timely idea. But how people come together, if we are afraid to show our faces, write up our names? For now we still live by the rules of IDC and most of us every year goes to this show. How to start creating a NEW club? Who will start it? It really has become a necessity. None of the leaders of the IDC is not thinking about: who will take their place tomorrow. They surrounded themselves obedient and convenient people, who do not have an self opinion and voice. Among these people there are NO real professionals. Honest. Serious. With their point of view, but not just a desire to get titles for their dogs. If we not change anything now - these people-dilettante will destroy our breed tomorrow. Faster and more efficiently than any disease.

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  84. I have been talking to owners of other working breeds, and it's the same shit - if not with shows, with character tests/breed surveys. It wouldn't be impossible to start up a new set of shows, a new club, and if not a breed specific, then at least working group specific temperament test, with enough supporters. Whoever wants to remain with the old club can do so, and whoever wants to try to make something new - for better or for worse, also has the liberty to try.

    I would be happy to meet people and discuss such a thing, even though I'm sure people will call me a "newbie" and I know from experience not everyone will agree on everything. As for the question about how, why not start off with email and then form a Facebook group?

    Here's my email address, for anyone who wants to contact me: forgot_to_be_human@hotmail.com

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  85. The problem is that people are not brave enough and not active. Someone satisfied with the current situation, for someone enough to talk here, someone changes are needed. But not enough of something to make the first steps. Communicating on Internet can be a first step. but this is not enough to make a real changes. To do this need with open face and speak on their behalf. So far I see this is the biggest difficulty.

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  86. If people don't even have the balls to communicate over the internet for fear of whatever, what hope is there of a face to face meeting ever being realized?

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  87. Well then let's take them down.

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  88. It is very difficult to make something new. Years ago there was the all-breed-premium-koerung established. This was a really nice idea. The reqirements were similar to the Malinois-Koerung.
    The Dobermanns that took part there, did pretty well and the dog people has been astonished how good Dobermanns are.
    Unfortunately the idea was destroyed by some idiots and criminals, tha could not accept, that their dogs were worse. They threatened the judges and the organizer with burning down their houses. At least, it took not place anymore.

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  89. Friends anonymous this is a problem you cannot do anything alone? Why you always wait for someone, for other? You don´t leave your club if the other leave too, you don’t go IDC and other real shit if all do the same!! So all await each other and nobody do anything alone by yourself!! You are just like sheep do you only make something in group. You're waiting for what? You are not happy with this great and f_ _k bullshit, so what you need other for you don´t be f_ _ k? This movement must start this way, one by one, tomorrow dozens, hundreds, thousands. Don´t wait for anyone, don´t feed support roguery. Think acting, be a real mans

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  90. IDC show is not too relevant. Do other, more effective steps:
    - to auslanders: make your local clubs step out from IDC
    - to Germans: stop paying membership fee to DV
    - demand complete change of DV leadership
    - demand different breed policy

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  91. So it seems like we should threaten to burn down the houses of these crooks, since that stopped the new Körung from taking place?

    The IDC is relevant, because the money raised there goes to the same place as the money paid for all the other events run by the DV.

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  92. No, not threat - burn. That's the only language they understand. And not for Korung, but for decades of ther misdeeds. C'mon, don't be sarcastically stupid.
    As per IDC the formal income is nothing really, but the bribe they are taking for the winning dogs is something completely different. And they do take the money for IDC ranking.

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  93. ranking-banking

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  94. You have right on what do you wroted but diseases will kill this breed more fast than politic. Sure, is a wrong politic result.
    In normal mode that peoples must endure justice for CRIME AGAINST ANIMALS !

    About the club, the changement must to come from INSIDE not from outside .
    --------------------

    AnonymousAugust 4, 2013 at 11:33 AM

    This is a very good and timely idea. But how people come together, if we are afraid to show our faces, write up our names? For now we still live by the rules of IDC and most of us every year goes to this show. How to start creating a NEW club? Who will start it? It really has become a necessity. None of the leaders of the IDC is not thinking about: who will take their place tomorrow. They surrounded themselves obedient and convenient people, who do not have an self opinion and voice. Among these people there are NO real professionals. Honest. Serious. With their point of view, but not just a desire to get titles for their dogs. If we not change anything now - these people-dilettante will destroy our breed tomorrow. Faster and more efficiently than any disease.

    ReplyDelete